Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela

[Priscillian]

Since my eating my own book is at stake and since I seem to have open an interesting can of worms on another thread, almost as satisfying as that on Spanish pilgrim Forums, I thought this might be a better place to transfer the discussion.
Major Spanish writers writing from 4th century to the 8th century, who should have made mention of St. James, quite pointedly do not. Even St. Jerome makes no mention while writing of Spain. Gregory of Tours (late 6th century) says nothing about St. James in Spain even though his writings include extensive material about holy places and shrines. Neither did Pope Innocencio. Saint Julian, Archbishop of Toledo claimed in his work, The Sixth Age, that James had never evangelised in Spain but suggests that he remained in Jerusalem spreading the Good News under St. James the Less. None of the Visigothic writers, and that includes St. Isidoro, allowed the saint´s presence in Spain at all, and Isidoro actually questioned the idea. And if we want to bring this further "up to date": Pope Clement VIII in the 1500's actually obliterated all previous refernces to St. James' evangelising in Hispania. And note, here we are only talking about preaching, not even about actual entombment. Even if the mythological stories (rudderless stone boats, blown "on the winds of providence", wild bulls and dragons, miracles springing disciples from prison etc.) are to believed, at best, James may - if he came at all - have made 9 converts. Nine. And according to the stories he was made most unwelcome anyway. Why would his disciples bring him back here to be buried where he and his message were virtually unknown and he wasn´t even welcome!
The fact is that by the 9th and 10th century, Spain was overrun with the Moors who were united in their faith and had Mohammed as their figurehead. Spain was a loose group of rival kingdoms. I can´t even say "associated": they were frequently at odds with one another, what, that is, was left of Hispania. Spain didn´t even exist until the late 15th century. In the early 11th century, especially, a figurehead was needed. Remains had been found in Galicia in the very early 800´s. Oddly, they were given no real importance by the Visigoths for quite some time, even though a small monastery and church was erected on the spot where the remains were found. But after a while, it was thought in certain power circles that maybe those remains might provide the very figurehead needed to "Cierre España": the battle cry.
I, following Regius Prof. Henry Chadwick and others (and actually local sensibilities: Priscillian is far from unknown in Galicia) have continued the idea that the remains might have been those of Priscillian, who had a vast following in Galicia and the north of Spain, right into the south part of Gaul in the last part of the 4th century. Despite all Roman Catholic attempts to stamp it out, Priscllianism remained a dominant force in Arian Suevi-held Spain for over 60 years following Priscillian´s execution on the grounds of "heresy" (in 385).
We do not know whose bones are there. I do not know if they are Priscillian´s. But I do not believe they are those of St. James.
Much more on my website and in the interview wth PilgrimsPlaza here on the Forum. But don´t take my word for it. Google almost anything on line not taken directly from the Catholic Encyclopaedia (1905) and you´ll find a lot of people agree with me in a lot of languages.
Tracy Saunders
http://pilgrimagetoheresy.com

[jeff001]

Does it really make any difference whose remains are or are not buried at Santiago?

[sillydoll]

It obviously mattered greatly in the 11th and 12th centuries ... not so much today!!
In those days, it would cost the community more money to buy a piece of the 'true cross' than it did to build the church to house it - and no church could be consecrated without at least one relic.

In the 7th c St. Aldhelm abbot of Malmesbury, a Latin poet and ecclesiastical writer, mentions St James in a poem "as the first fruits of the gospel, St James through his preaching converted the hispanic peoples.."

One book says that the tradition of St James in Spain was preserved in the 5th - 7th c being found in the writings of St Isidore of Seville's De Ortu et Obitu Patrum, written in about 630, mentions that James had evangelized the west of Spain and that the hymn, O Dei Verbum, dating from about 785, acclaimed the apostle as the evengelizer and patron of Christian Spain.

The Breviarum Apostolorum - or Breviary of the Apostles - was the first to claim that James had preached in Hispania.

The burial place was identified as Arca Marmórica - a marble chest or sarcophagus.

Read more:

http://www.csj.org.uk/2000-years.htm
http://www.seacex.com/documentos/09_san ... edents.pdf

[Peter Robins]

Does it really make any difference whose remains are or are not buried at Santiago?

of course; it's fundamental! The whole point of pilgrimage is that it's a journey to a holy place, and the places are made holy through the association with holy men and women. Remove that association and the pilgrimage becomes pointless. The whole point of Santiago is the association with Sant Iago. Remove Sant Iago from Santiago, and what are you left with?

[sillydoll]

A grande randonnée???

[Priscillian]

"Remove Sant Iago from Santiago and what are you left with?"
Compostela.
Perhaps a more open field of Stars?

[JohnnieWalker]

I must confess to having some sympathy's with Jeff's position in this redundant debate - whilst I understand Peter's point entirely, we can't do a DNA test on the bones to prove they are St James' or anyone else's - so we believe them to be the bones of St James and given that it can't be proved does it really matter if they are symbols or reality?

Meanwhile the pilgrims keep walking to Santiago...

[sillydoll]

The name "Compostela did not exist in the 2nd quarter of the 11th Century (the time of Alfonso III).
The popular etymology of the name "Compostela" is that it comes from Latin campus stellae, i.e. "field of stars", making Santiago de Compostela "St. James in the Field of Stars".
Another etymology is Compositum, i.e. "The well founded",
And yet another is Composita Tella, meaning "burial ground".

[jeff001]

My point is that, to me at least, the journey is more important than the destination. And if the journey isn't worth it to you unless the "actual" bones of St. James are there you might as well stay at home.

[John Hussey]

Whether St James is or is not at rest there is of lessor importance than whether one believes he is-or is not. For my part, I am quite happy to believe that he is.

[sillydoll]

On Archicompostela.org the Santiago de Compostela Archdiosces has this to say about the 'way' and the 'goal'.

The most important thing here is the Goal, not the Way. Jacobean Pilgrims do not go on pilgrimage for the sake of the Way. Through the Way they do get to the Tomb of Saint James "the Great".
Their sacrifice and suffering while journeying to Compostela are living symbols. It consists in revealing their solidarity and compromise to the Good News of Jesus, which echoes from the Apostle's Tomb: "The time has come. The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" (Mark 1,15).
Thus, the Way is just a means, a road the pilgrim walks along.

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

Remove Sant Iago from Santiago, and what are you left with?

The Santiago Enigma by PILGRIMSPLAZA on March 21st, 2008, 6:00 pm on
miscellaneous-about-santiago/topic3794.html. You're invited to react too!

[Priscillian]

OK....a thought experiment.
Suppose, just suppose, that the person who was actually buried in the cathedral taught and practised a more "pure" form of Christianity that was adopted by the Roman church in the late 4th century. Historically, we know that the Roman church agreed on only certain material being included in the NT. From the Council of Nicea and others onwards, the rest was deemed apocrypha, and later, it was dangerous to want to read it. If you could, of course. For those who couldn´t, well, we had the deacons, the priests, the bishops, and the Vicar of Rome to "interpret" it for us. But I digress....back to Compostela.
Suppose, just suppose, that the Jesus we encounter in the NT is only the Jesus that we are allowed to believe in simply because the stories we grew up with tell us so. (Bethlehem, Nazareth etc.) Now, just suppose, just for a minute, there were other stories, stories that were suppressed, stories that were forbidden, stories that were hidden away by monks in Egypt for fear of persecution and possible death. Now, just suppose, those stories somehow, somehow made their way to a Roman civilian in Spain in the late 4th century. A man from a noble house, a layman, wordly and erudite who wanted to know more than was good for him. Let´s suppose that man, having read that material, decided to proselytise it believing it to be the real message of Jesus the Christ. A man who came to insist on a simple way of life, a vegetarian diet, celibacy for the "elect" of his followers. In short, a man following Essene precepts the like of which research has shown was most certainly that practised by Jesus himself! Read Barbara Theirring´s higly disturbing Jesus the Man. Theirring was crucially involved with the deciphering of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Now let's execute that man because he refuses to tow the line, because his views are considered "heresy" by the church. Executed perhaps because he had the good sense to know (as did the Romans themselves - Constantine adopted Christianity alright, but in practice remained a follower of Sol Invictus which is why you celebrate Christmas at the end of December!) that to win over the hearts and minds of the people you do not destroy their old beliefs: you gently bring them around to seeing just how closely they resemble your own. (Easter is the name of a pagan goddess of fertility for heaven´s sake!)
Was this a holy man. A Holy Man? If so, and we are making a pilgrimage to his grave not St. James´, are we doing ourselves any unjustice at all?
Priscillian of Avila was just such a man.

[Priscillian]

"OK....a thought experiment.
Suppose, just suppose, that the person who was actually buried in the cathedral taught and practised a more "pure" form of Christianity that was adopted by the Roman church in the late 4th century."

Edit by Priscillian:
...that is supposed to read "than" was adopted by the Roman Church. It makes a bit of a difference...
How do I edit my posts, anyway!!
Tracy Saunders
http://pilgrimagetoheresy.com

[omar504]

Tracy-to edit your own post: you will see above your own post an 'edit' option if you click on that it brings up the original which you can then edit and re-post.

[sillydoll]

In defence of pilgrimage St Jerome (who also wrote about Priscilian's execution) said:
“We do not worship, we do not adore for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the Creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore Him whose martyrs they are.”
What delicious vindication if it really is Prisicilian's skeleton in the tomb at Compostela! He must've been smiling in his grave all these years: what he couldn't achieve in life, he achieved ten-fold in death.
RIP

[falcon269]

And suppose the User Manual for life is revised more often than every 2,000 years? And suppose it covers more humans than a few million in the Mediterranean region, or even many millions in the Euro-centric world?

There may be very little of importance to be learned in the minutiae of parsed history. You can't get the same story from twenty people who witness a crime. Will a detailed study of one of their mistaken versions really lead to the "truth?"

I have examined the objects and features of the history along the Camino for hours, and then gotten more of what I really want from the pilgrimage in a ten minute talk with a fellow pilgrim.

[PILGRIMSPLAZA]

a ten minute talk with a fellow pilgrim

Hi Falcon,
I did the Gloria "Enigma" alone in a split second.
Please try next time you're in town so we can talk!
Geert

[Javier Martin]

"Remove Sant Iago from Santiago, and what are you left with?" (Peter)

Left? Story, tradition and Legend.

And, don't forget that centuries before Sant Iago tradition, people went to the Finis Terrae.

Santiago gave people a reason to walk to the west, when christian soldiers were fighting against arab forces. To settle there, to confirm it were christian lands, and it were safe.

I'm really sorry with all of you, to many long messages in this line for my poor english knowledge.

Buen Camino, always to the west, by the campus stellae, even to the Finis Terrae.

Javier Martin
Madrid, Spain.

[jl]

Hello Javier,

Congratulations on your English skills. Don't worry - you do very well. I have what I consider is a good command of English and yet I struggle to follow some of the long posts - so you are not alone. Keep up the good work, as you have much of value to add!

regards, Janet

[Javier Martin]

Thanks, Janet, I'm always trying to give my best, and not always it's easy.

Buen Camino,

Javier Martin
Madrid, Spain.

[Priscillian]

Javier: Muchas gracias para tu responsa. Believe me I couldn´t have done better in Spanish and I have been here for 12 years! There are plans for Pilgrimage to Heresy to be published in Spanish from the Editorial Algaida. When all is confirmed I´ll post the details aqui. Mientras you might be interested in the following links as they are in Spanish and English and subtitled in many other languages as well. They will tell you un poco mas de Priscillianismo:
http://video.godsdirectcontact.net/down ... 17_703.wmv

http://video.godsdirectcontact.net/down ... 24_710.wmv

http://video.godsdirectcontact.net/down ... 31_717.wmv
Un Saludo Xacobeo,
Tracy Saunders
http://www.pilgrimagetoheresy.com

[gyro]

Dear Priscillian (and hello everybody else),
What an interesting discussion thread: many thanks for posting your thoughts to us.

Your suggestion that the present veneration of St James stemmed, at least in part, from the Galician veneration of Priscillian is very interesting. It is certainly worth researching further.

I have no particular fear of discovering that the bones of the historical St James do not lie in Galicia. I feel that, with matters of faith, geography and history should be valued as important components. I also believe that historical research, if worthy of the name, could only produce a maturer, more considered faith and knowledge of the divine.

So thank you -and thanks to the other contributors - for this discussion. I look forward to reading more on this subject.
Kind regards
Gyro

[Javier Martin]

... Your suggestion that the present veneration of St James stemmed, at least in part, from the Galician veneration of Priscillian is very interesting. It is certainly worth researching further....

As far as I know, Priscillian is buried in the place of Os Martores, very near of Valga, in the Camino Portugues.

He was born in Galicia, because in IV century Astorga was belonging to Galicia.

Buen Camino,

Javier Martin
Madrid, Spain.

[gyro]

As far as I know, Priscillian is buried in the place of Os Martores, very near of Valga, in the Camino Portugues.
He was born in Galicia, because in IV century Astorga was belonging to Galicia.
Buen Camino,

Javier Martin
Madrid, Spain.

Y usted, peregrino.

Thank you for telling us that.
I am planning to tackle the Camino Portugues next April, so this looks an opportunity for a little research on the way.
Kind regards
Gyro